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KiowaKat
Elder

USA
12084 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2008 :  09:05:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit KiowaKat's Homepage  Reply with Quote
interesting read and comments...

http://threeoaks.dakotablogs.com/2008/03/08/wannabes-commercialize-their-%e2%80%9cceremonial-grounds%e2%80%9d/

Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

“Lost Cherokee Headman” Doug Cotter is conducting Arkansas Concealed Carry (handgun) Permit training for $40 per person at the organization’s “ceremonial grounds” in Dover, Arkansas. This is one of the factions that has split from the original “Lost Cherokee” in the past couple of years, after a disagreement between Cliff Bishop and Doug Maxwell. If you recall from previous comments, the original “Lost Cherokee” was the group that was involved in spurious Office of Indian Education grants and numerous Arkansas School Districts. The Office of Indian Education continues to give grants nationwide to schools without Indian students, a massive misuse of Indian directed funds.
While the validity of any “ceremonial ground” established by a wannabe “tribe” should be brought into question, the “Lost Cherokee’s” claim of a ceremonial ground and subsequent use of the site for such an activity is a degradation of real ceremonial grounds. This goes to show how far these wannabe “tribes” can go in maligning Indian traditions. Ceremonial grounds are for religious purposes, and the “Lost Cherokee’s” use of their so-called “ceremonial grounds” makes a laughing stock of real ceremonial grounds everywhere.
Concealed Carry Permit training on such grounds are not in keeping with the purpose of those grounds any more than holding bingo games would be.
.As with other non-religious activities, it does not belong there. I find it unimaginable that Cotter could not have located another place in Dover to conduct his activities. Even if the “Lost Cherokee” grounds are a pale wannabe imitation of a ceremonial ground - which I suggest it is - conducting this non-religious activity on the grounds is an insult to legitimate American Indians who value their traditions. At the same time that many Tribes are trying to protect their traditional ceremonial grounds, the “Lost Cherokee” conveys a false impression to the public that ceremonial grounds are unimportant pieces of real estate that have no special meaning and can be commercialized at will.
Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas.


IMO: If you allow people to do whatever they want with the American Indian culture, you are participating in the continuing genocide of the American Indians.

"I think therefore I'm a threat, I stand therefore I'm in the way, I dream therefore I'm dangerous" Louis Gray

"sometimes you have to forego doing what's popular in order to do what's right." Mo'Nique 2010

"You can observe alot by watching" Yogi Berra

http://www.facebook.com/people/Kathy-Dickerson-
KiowaKat/100000489707436

KiowaKat
Elder

USA
12084 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:08:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit KiowaKat's Homepage  Reply with Quote


Subject: lost cherokee ceremonial grounds
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:17:18 -0500
Kathy, I just found the little article you have posted on the web about me and the Ceremonial grounds of the Lost Cherokee at Dover. Here we go again, an individual getting part of the story and running like a hound with the last biscuit to spread the word that some wannabe indians are doing something wrong. Well, to begin with, I have never taught a conceled carry class, and I have no permit to carry a concealed firearm. Please, check it out, like you should have before you started belittling someone you know nothing about. Why is it that you people are so quick to put down indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept. Do you think that we are trying to take something away from your people or what is the problem. As far as our ceremonial grounds we treat them with the respect due any place of worship. For you to tell us that we are not worthy of having ceremonial grounds reminds me of what the white men did when they first came to this country, telling the indian people that ther are not worshiping the Creator in the right way and that they must do as the white people say or they would be lost forever. We need to be careful of criticizing any group of indian people for worshiping how and when they choose. We follow our ancestors traditions as closely as we know to do and ask the Creator to forgive us if we make mistakes in our cermonies and further ask for guidence in doing them correctly. What more can we do than this. Please try to be more considerate in the future because, whether you beleive or like it, we are relitaves. Oh by the way, we did not split off from the original group, we are the original group, Mr. Bishop left and declaired that there was no tribe and that he and his bunch were a corporation. We have the office of record with the BIA, the phone number, the po box and physical address of record.
Doug Cotter,
Acting Headman
Lost Cherokee of Arkansas and Missouri
Dover., Arkansas



Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:25:19 -0500
Kathy, I dont want to get into a deep discussion on this subject, but, I do have one question if you don't mind.
How much less of an Indian were you or any of your tribal members before you were recognized by the Federal Goverment? Are you not the same people living the same lives and doing the same things? Why do we have to have the White Government tell us that we meet their rules and regulations to be Indian? I know that this is more than one question and I appoligize for this, I just have a huge probled with the Government who stole our homeland telling us who can claim to be indian and who cannot, and indian people backing them up on this.

IMO: If you allow people to do whatever they want with the American Indian culture, you are participating in the continuing genocide of the American Indians.

"I think therefore I'm a threat, I stand therefore I'm in the way, I dream therefore I'm dangerous" Louis Gray

"sometimes you have to forego doing what's popular in order to do what's right." Mo'Nique 2010

"You can observe alot by watching" Yogi Berra

http://www.facebook.com/people/Kathy-Dickerson-
KiowaKat/100000489707436
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Grammak
Elder

USA
3349 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:17:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So,

Did you address his 'issues'? Just asking.

Grammak

"Why go to the place where the supposed stalking takes place? That's like driving by someone's house everyday and everytime you see them outside you point the finger and say, Yep, see? There they are looking at me again."

"There is nothing that can possibly compare to an Indianz.com naming ceremony" Kii-yaa-tuk


"this is a good place to say what I think of cards. real Indians don't carry them to prove they're Indian. they carry one to remind Uncle Sammy that they are and to remind him of his promises...JMO" Tso-i-de 2008
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:19:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
LOL....LOL...
"Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas"

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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KiowaKat
Elder

USA
12084 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:20:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit KiowaKat's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grammak

So,

Did you address his 'issues'? Just asking.

Grammak



no not yet he was reading this thread so I thought he needs some opinions to his "issues" wanna help out? lol




IMO: If you allow people to do whatever they want with the American Indian culture, you are participating in the continuing genocide of the American Indians.

"I think therefore I'm a threat, I stand therefore I'm in the way, I dream therefore I'm dangerous" Louis Gray

"sometimes you have to forego doing what's popular in order to do what's right." Mo'Nique 2010

"You can observe alot by watching" Yogi Berra

http://www.facebook.com/people/Kathy-Dickerson-
KiowaKat/100000489707436

Edited by - KiowaKat on 07/12/2008 9:21:34 PM
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:33:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
actually grammak that letter should not of gone to KK it should of gone to AIHSC and yes I have addressed his issues.. :)

my reply: As Indians before the feds we were NATIONS, indians after the feds- we are Nations w/ treaties...LOL....

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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Grammak
Elder

USA
3349 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:44:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kiowakat,

Should I start with 'If your family refused to return to the nation AFTER the removal (remember that was AFTER) when they were no longer forced at gunpoint, and instead chose property and US citizenship over tribe and blood, why do you feel 'entitled' or a 'right' to acceptance 150 years later?

Or should I go with, If you have to look up your genealogy and trace back 150 years to find out if you really had a native american ancestor, or get a DNA test to see if the genes might exist, you're too far removed from your ancestors to claim a political connection.

Or this one. Anyone (i.e. a student of native studies) can learn a native language, culture, and tradition, but if that person is not accepted by the tribe they claim, if the people do not reconize him/her as part of the tribal family, why do they believe they are ndn?

Three to start? I really do not expect a response to this. Just spending time on a Saturday night.

Grammak

"Why go to the place where the supposed stalking takes place? That's like driving by someone's house everyday and everytime you see them outside you point the finger and say, Yep, see? There they are looking at me again."

"There is nothing that can possibly compare to an Indianz.com naming ceremony" Kii-yaa-tuk


"this is a good place to say what I think of cards. real Indians don't carry them to prove they're Indian. they carry one to remind Uncle Sammy that they are and to remind him of his promises...JMO" Tso-i-de 2008
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Grammak
Elder

USA
3349 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  9:55:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by weshok

LOL....LOL...
"Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas"



Weshok,

You're talking about the hills of Arkansas here.

Not intending to offend, but I spent a few summers there as a kid in the Danville/Booneville area. Picked a lot of blackberries.

Grammak

"Why go to the place where the supposed stalking takes place? That's like driving by someone's house everyday and everytime you see them outside you point the finger and say, Yep, see? There they are looking at me again."

"There is nothing that can possibly compare to an Indianz.com naming ceremony" Kii-yaa-tuk


"this is a good place to say what I think of cards. real Indians don't carry them to prove they're Indian. they carry one to remind Uncle Sammy that they are and to remind him of his promises...JMO" Tso-i-de 2008
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  10:11:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
no offense taken, it's been "different" living here lol...

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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Mofo-D
Elder

2692 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  10:46:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hear banjo's when I look at that guy above.

something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE

I think Tso does a spotlight dance halfway thru.

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Grammak
Elder

USA
3349 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2008 :  11:00:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by weshok

actually grammak that letter should not of gone to KK it should of gone to AIHSC and yes I have addressed his issues.. :)

my reply: As Indians before the feds we were NATIONS, indians after the feds- we are Nations w/ treaties...LOL....



Well Put!

"Why go to the place where the supposed stalking takes place? That's like driving by someone's house everyday and everytime you see them outside you point the finger and say, Yep, see? There they are looking at me again."

"There is nothing that can possibly compare to an Indianz.com naming ceremony" Kii-yaa-tuk


"this is a good place to say what I think of cards. real Indians don't carry them to prove they're Indian. they carry one to remind Uncle Sammy that they are and to remind him of his promises...JMO" Tso-i-de 2008
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  12:09:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
well I don't know what this Doug Cotter is trying to deny, I have found the advertisment in the Russellville Arkansas newspaper for their gun concealment license class being held at their so called "ceremonial grounds" Dave might be deathly ill w/ cancer but he didn't make things up just to have a blog.

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?

Edited by - weshok on 07/13/2008 12:10:54 AM
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steeles46
Elder

USA
3810 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  01:19:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LMAO! He looks like a full blood white man to me. No tan, no nothing. LOL!

Edited by - steeles46 on 07/13/2008 01:19:46 AM
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  01:21:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
yeah, can't leave the house w/out the hunting cap probably says NRA too..lol...

p.s. that is his tan..LOL...sunglasses time.

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?

Edited by - weshok on 07/13/2008 01:21:50 AM
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josihair
New Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  08:05:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KiowaKat



Subject: lost cherokee ceremonial grounds
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:17:18 -0500
Kathy, I just found the little article you have posted on the web about me and the Ceremonial grounds of the Lost Cherokee at Dover. Here we go again, an individual getting part of the story and running like a hound with the last biscuit to spread the word that some wannabe indians are doing something wrong. Well, to begin with, I have never taught a conceled carry class, and I have no permit to carry a concealed firearm. Please, check it out, like you should have before you started belittling someone you know nothing about. Why is it that you people are so quick to put down indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept. Do you think that we are trying to take something away from your people or what is the problem. As far as our ceremonial grounds we treat them with the respect due any place of worship. For you to tell us that we are not worthy of having ceremonial grounds reminds me of what the white men did when they first came to this country, telling the indian people that ther are not worshiping the Creator in the right way and that they must do as the white people say or they would be lost forever. We need to be careful of criticizing any group of indian people for worshiping how and when they choose. We follow our ancestors traditions as closely as we know to do and ask the Creator to forgive us if we make mistakes in our cermonies and further ask for guidence in doing them correctly. What more can we do than this. Please try to be more considerate in the future because, whether you beleive or like it, we are relitaves. Oh by the way, we did not split off from the original group, we are the original group, Mr. Bishop left and declaired that there was no tribe and that he and his bunch were a corporation. We have the office of record with the BIA, the phone number, the po box and physical address of record.
Doug Cotter,
Acting Headman
Lost Cherokee of Arkansas and Missouri
Dover., Arkansas



Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:25:19 -0500
Kathy, I dont want to get into a deep discussion on this subject, but, I do have one question if you don't mind.
How much less of an Indian were you or any of your tribal members before you were recognized by the Federal Goverment? Are you not the same people living the same lives and doing the same things? Why do we have to have the White Government tell us that we meet their rules and regulations to be Indian? I know that this is more than one question and I appoligize for this, I just have a huge probled with the Government who stole our homeland telling us who can claim to be indian and who cannot, and indian people backing them up on this.



You know when I read stuff like this I just shake my head they have twisted facts and chose to only believe certain parts of history for so long that they begin to believe it themselves:

Case in Point: Why is it that you people are so quick to put down Indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept.

Now I read this and say ummm your not thinking there was only one roll right??? Because most of these people have the mistaken notion that the Dawes Rolls was the only one.

Rolls Before and During Removal

Reservation Rolls 1817
Recorded the Cherokees who chose to accept a plot of land on the Cherokee reservation (Eastern Band).

Emigration Rolls 1817-1835
Recorded those Cherokee who chose to "emigrate" to Indian Territory west of the Mississippi River in present day Oklahoma and Arkansas (prior to the Trail of Tears.)

Henderson Roll 1835
Recorded those Cherokees who were to be removed to Indian Territory on what would later be called the Trail of Tears.

Post Removal Rolls

Mullay Roll 1848
Recorded the Cherokees who remained in North Carolina after removal.

Siler Roll 1851 - Eastern
Recorded Eastern Cherokee entitled to per capita payment.

Old Settler Roll 1851 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee (still living) who had emigrated to Indian Territory prior to removal.

Chapman Roll 1852 - Eastern
Recorded the Eastern Cherokee who actually received payment from the government (reference to Siler Roll).

Drennen Roll 1852 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee who came to Indian Territory in 1839 on the Trail of Tears.

Act of Congress Roll 1854 - Eastern
Small roll of names added to the Siler Roll.

Swetland Roll 1869 - Eastern
Recorded those Cherokees, and their descendants, who were listed on the Mullay Roll as residing in North Carolina.

Hester Roll 1883 - Eastern
A roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which provides a good deal of detail about those listed.

Churchill Roll 1908 - Eastern
Additional roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which also included a list of those rejected from the Eastern Band.

Guion Miller Roll 1909 - Eastern & Western
For Cherokees (east and west) excluding the "Old Settlers" who were effected by numerous treaty violations and might be eligible for a monetary award as a result of the treaty violations.

Baker Roll 1924 - Eastern
The final roll of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee in anticipation of allotment. The land was not allotted and the reservation still exists. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Eastern Band.

The Dawes Rolls 1898-1914 - Western
The final roll of the western Cherokee. The roll ended the Cherokee Nation and allotted the land to the roll signers. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Cherokee Nation.


Here is the point to this
If none of your Ancestors showed up on any of these rolls from 1817 to 1914 then it was a pretty good bet they were not Cherokee!!! They had chose to move away from there kinfolk and live as whites that was their choice and some did that. Mostly the mixed bloods had done this. When you understand our history the Full bloods had been the ones that "emigrated" Long before the trail of tears.
That is what started so much bad blood during the dark days of the 1840's and 1850's when the mix breeds that had been moved to Oklahoma and started flexing their political muscle to take back over the tribal council!!!

History is there to read and study, You cant take parts of it and twist it to your needs because there will always be someone that comes along calls BULLSHYTE on it!!!
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  08:42:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
hey josihair, thanks for your imput. Welcome to the board.

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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Keenhmah
Elder

USA
10294 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  09:34:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The man is pink!

Wish there were laws against these fakes, frauds, wannabe's.



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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  09:47:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
well there are when they break a law but to get the state or feds to prosecute is another story. Just like them doing the OIE scam, still waiting for the feds to do something w/ the case. In the mean time they have split into 4 different groups while one of the four has won a 1/2 million dollars and personal property to an old lady's estate. That's another story in itself which was blogged back last year when it was going on. These guys can have judges, attorneys, cops, legislative members who are "members" of their group.

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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KiowaKat
Elder

USA
12084 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  09:49:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit KiowaKat's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by josihair

quote:
Originally posted by KiowaKat



Subject: lost cherokee ceremonial grounds
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:17:18 -0500
Kathy, I just found the little article you have posted on the web about me and the Ceremonial grounds of the Lost Cherokee at Dover. Here we go again, an individual getting part of the story and running like a hound with the last biscuit to spread the word that some wannabe indians are doing something wrong. Well, to begin with, I have never taught a conceled carry class, and I have no permit to carry a concealed firearm. Please, check it out, like you should have before you started belittling someone you know nothing about. Why is it that you people are so quick to put down indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept. Do you think that we are trying to take something away from your people or what is the problem. As far as our ceremonial grounds we treat them with the respect due any place of worship. For you to tell us that we are not worthy of having ceremonial grounds reminds me of what the white men did when they first came to this country, telling the indian people that ther are not worshiping the Creator in the right way and that they must do as the white people say or they would be lost forever. We need to be careful of criticizing any group of indian people for worshiping how and when they choose. We follow our ancestors traditions as closely as we know to do and ask the Creator to forgive us if we make mistakes in our cermonies and further ask for guidence in doing them correctly. What more can we do than this. Please try to be more considerate in the future because, whether you beleive or like it, we are relitaves. Oh by the way, we did not split off from the original group, we are the original group, Mr. Bishop left and declaired that there was no tribe and that he and his bunch were a corporation. We have the office of record with the BIA, the phone number, the po box and physical address of record.
Doug Cotter,
Acting Headman
Lost Cherokee of Arkansas and Missouri
Dover., Arkansas



Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:25:19 -0500
Kathy, I dont want to get into a deep discussion on this subject, but, I do have one question if you don't mind.
How much less of an Indian were you or any of your tribal members before you were recognized by the Federal Goverment? Are you not the same people living the same lives and doing the same things? Why do we have to have the White Government tell us that we meet their rules and regulations to be Indian? I know that this is more than one question and I appoligize for this, I just have a huge probled with the Government who stole our homeland telling us who can claim to be indian and who cannot, and indian people backing them up on this.



You know when I read stuff like this I just shake my head they have twisted facts and chose to only believe certain parts of history for so long that they begin to believe it themselves:

Case in Point: Why is it that you people are so quick to put down Indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept.

Now I read this and say ummm your not thinking there was only one roll right??? Because most of these people have the mistaken notion that the Dawes Rolls was the only one.

Rolls Before and During Removal

Reservation Rolls 1817
Recorded the Cherokees who chose to accept a plot of land on the Cherokee reservation (Eastern Band).

Emigration Rolls 1817-1835
Recorded those Cherokee who chose to "emigrate" to Indian Territory west of the Mississippi River in present day Oklahoma and Arkansas (prior to the Trail of Tears.)

Henderson Roll 1835
Recorded those Cherokees who were to be removed to Indian Territory on what would later be called the Trail of Tears.

Post Removal Rolls

Mullay Roll 1848
Recorded the Cherokees who remained in North Carolina after removal.

Siler Roll 1851 - Eastern
Recorded Eastern Cherokee entitled to per capita payment.

Old Settler Roll 1851 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee (still living) who had emigrated to Indian Territory prior to removal.

Chapman Roll 1852 - Eastern
Recorded the Eastern Cherokee who actually received payment from the government (reference to Siler Roll).

Drennen Roll 1852 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee who came to Indian Territory in 1839 on the Trail of Tears.

Act of Congress Roll 1854 - Eastern
Small roll of names added to the Siler Roll.

Swetland Roll 1869 - Eastern
Recorded those Cherokees, and their descendants, who were listed on the Mullay Roll as residing in North Carolina.

Hester Roll 1883 - Eastern
A roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which provides a good deal of detail about those listed.

Churchill Roll 1908 - Eastern
Additional roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which also included a list of those rejected from the Eastern Band.

Guion Miller Roll 1909 - Eastern & Western
For Cherokees (east and west) excluding the "Old Settlers" who were effected by numerous treaty violations and might be eligible for a monetary award as a result of the treaty violations.

Baker Roll 1924 - Eastern
The final roll of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee in anticipation of allotment. The land was not allotted and the reservation still exists. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Eastern Band.

The Dawes Rolls 1898-1914 - Western
The final roll of the western Cherokee. The roll ended the Cherokee Nation and allotted the land to the roll signers. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Cherokee Nation.


Here is the point to this
If none of your Ancestors showed up on any of these rolls from 1817 to 1914 then it was a pretty good bet they were not Cherokee!!! They had chose to move away from there kinfolk and live as whites that was their choice and some did that. Mostly the mixed bloods had done this. When you understand our history the Full bloods had been the ones that "emigrated" Long before the trail of tears.
That is what started so much bad blood during the dark days of the 1840's and 1850's when the mix breeds that had been moved to Oklahoma and started flexing their political muscle to take back over the tribal council!!!

History is there to read and study, You cant take parts of it and twist it to your needs because there will always be someone that comes along calls BULLSHYTE on it!!!




welcome to the board josiah

IMO: If you allow people to do whatever they want with the American Indian culture, you are participating in the continuing genocide of the American Indians.

"I think therefore I'm a threat, I stand therefore I'm in the way, I dream therefore I'm dangerous" Louis Gray

"sometimes you have to forego doing what's popular in order to do what's right." Mo'Nique 2010

"You can observe alot by watching" Yogi Berra

http://www.facebook.com/people/Kathy-Dickerson-
KiowaKat/100000489707436
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  09:50:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
oh is that who I think it is? hey whatz up!

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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Katchaleenspath
Tribal Council Member

312 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  11:38:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh wow, the ribbon shirt almost fooled me, I have a hard time with the ones who wear some artical of traditional regalia and then top it off with a nice BEER HUNTERS BALL CAP, dang whats up with that, and who the heck ever feels need to carry a weapon onto a place of worship or ceremony. He needs to rethink his manner of dressing and put on a white tee shirt and go be a good hill-billy someplace else. I am truly embarresed by him.
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Katchaleenspath
Tribal Council Member

312 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  11:39:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh wow, the ribbon shirt almost fooled me, I have a hard time with the ones who wear some artical of traditional regalia and then top it off with a nice BEER HUNTERS BALL CAP, dang whats up with that, and who the heck ever feels need to carry a weapon onto a place of worship or ceremony. He needs to rethink his manner of dressing and put on a white tee shirt and go be a good hill-billy someplace else. I am truly embarresed by him.
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  12:33:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
talk about stereotyping_ these people are nothing more than walking mascots...LOL...

over 100 people attended in traditional garb..lol... the groom rode in on a HORSE....lol... pictures can viewed at http://www.lostcherokeetribe.com/phoenix/Volume_001_Issue_007.pdf

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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deebee
Elder

1282 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  12:55:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit deebee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by weshok

talk about stereotyping_ these people are nothing more than walking mascots...LOL...

over 100 people attended in traditional garb..lol... the groom rode in on a HORSE....lol... pictures can viewed at http://www.lostcherokeetribe.com/phoenix/Volume_001_Issue_007.pdf




The Lost Cherokee's. Is this one of those Eric Rudolf tribes ?

First they wanted the land and all the resourses. Then they wanted us to just perish from the earth. Yet the white people still come. Only now they want to be us.

Watch your azz when you hear the white man standing next you start saying "WE"
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weshok
Elder

US
2125 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  1:05:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit weshok's Homepage  Reply with Quote
lol...good one! there seems to be a few of them types running around. Well you know do what you can to reel in the members- solicite @ flea markets, schools, powwows, food pantry, city meetings and of course during a class for concealed weapons .

Wish the feds would get all these yahoos off their list but I understand they have to wade through all the "claims" made, wade through all the genealogy they got off the internet, shift through all the records "burned" up in fires.

it's not hard to understand my pov except for those who refuse to accept what it is.

See the problem is those who are wanting to be Indian only started off being Cherokee now it has evolved into other tribal nations as it will continue to spread. I don't care if you want to claim being Indian all day long because of your family FOLKLORE only as long as you don't form or join delusional tribes, clans, bands or nations and stay the hell away from $$ meant for federally recognized Indians. And I sure in the heck don't want to hear about how you are more Indian than an Indian or see/listen/witness anyone who has family folklore of being an indian is a "lostbird" has a right to ICWA, has a right to OIE< IHS, or any other other program and that you or your family attended boarding school when neither have. Conducting ceremonies, selling arts/crafts, taking our ancestors remains or being on the opposite side of the mascot issue. If you're not helping in a good way stay the heck out of the way.

What is so hard to understand in that whole paragraph?
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KiowaKat
Elder

USA
12084 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  1:08:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit KiowaKat's Homepage  Reply with Quote
who is eric rudolf LOL, and this arkansas-Missouri self proclaimed lost cherokee tribe is pyrimiding out to arizona geeezus....

IMO: If you allow people to do whatever they want with the American Indian culture, you are participating in the continuing genocide of the American Indians.

"I think therefore I'm a threat, I stand therefore I'm in the way, I dream therefore I'm dangerous" Louis Gray

"sometimes you have to forego doing what's popular in order to do what's right." Mo'Nique 2010

"You can observe alot by watching" Yogi Berra

http://www.facebook.com/people/Kathy-Dickerson-
KiowaKat/100000489707436
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Katchaleenspath
Tribal Council Member

312 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  1:22:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Saw the pictures that weshok spoke of, Do they not see what they are doing, do they not see how childlike they look? Do they not know they wear their regalia in a wrong way. Mixed blood is mixed blood we do not mix our clothing nor do we mix our ceremonies. Sorry for the rant, this is a pet peeve of mine.
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deebee
Elder

1282 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  1:43:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit deebee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KiowaKat

who is eric rudolf LOL, and this arkansas-Missouri self proclaimed lost cherokee tribe is pyrimiding out to arizona geeezus....



Kat I'm really suprised that you don't know how the Cherokee's managed to hide out in the hills for 150 years.



http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=30259;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199489;article=30263;title=Issues%20Affecting%20American%20Indians%20in%20Tennessee

First they wanted the land and all the resourses. Then they wanted us to just perish from the earth. Yet the white people still come. Only now they want to be us.

Watch your azz when you hear the white man standing next you start saying "WE"
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Grammak
Elder

USA
3349 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  2:57:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KiowaKat

who is eric rudolf LOL, and this arkansas-Missouri self proclaimed lost cherokee tribe is pyrimiding out to arizona geeezus....



What? Now they hid out in Arizona? Must've been hiding in those retirement trailer parks. Could get lost in all the twists and turns trying to avoid running over the golfcarts driven by those old folks.

"Why go to the place where the supposed stalking takes place? That's like driving by someone's house everyday and everytime you see them outside you point the finger and say, Yep, see? There they are looking at me again."

"There is nothing that can possibly compare to an Indianz.com naming ceremony" Kii-yaa-tuk


"this is a good place to say what I think of cards. real Indians don't carry them to prove they're Indian. they carry one to remind Uncle Sammy that they are and to remind him of his promises...JMO" Tso-i-de 2008
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Hatx
Elder

1141 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  2:59:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KiowaKat





Subject: lost cherokee ceremonial grounds
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:17:18 -0500

Kathy,

... Why is it that you people are so quick to put down indian people whose ancestors had the balls to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. ..

Doug Cotter,
Acting Headman
Lost Cherokee of Arkansas and Missouri
Dover., Arkansas




... which brings me to this quote:


"There are two ways to deal with the white man. You either pick up a gun or you stand between him and his money." - Chief of First Nation, Manitoba




And that's my 2 cents for today
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HomeGrown
Elder

USA
11588 Posts

Posted - 07/13/2008 :  4:09:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit HomeGrown's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And an excellent 2 cents it is too Hatx.

Why oh why are they always Cherokee? ha ha Cherokee people, Cherokee pride....so proud to live....so proud to die...aye!!!!
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